A taste:
… That’s what makes the response of Willie Jackson and John Tamihere so appalling. They can reasonably be called role models for those young men, which meant they had a particular responsibility. Every decent-minded person the Roast Busters might have listened to was duty-bound to say, “What you do and think is wrong.” Good ol’ Willie and JT chose instead to talk about “a bit of mischief” and imply the girls in question might have been complicit in the crimes against them.
The argument that women who wear a short skirt or get drunk are asking for it is medieval: it’s one of the things we like to say is appalling about the Taliban.
Actually, it’s worse, because it suggests men believe there are times when women license them to become barbarians. Why would anyone believe that might be true?
We want boys to understand right and wrong in sexual relations. We also want girls to know they can speak up, say no when they want to and complain when they need to. Jackson and Tamihere didn’t just telegraph their blessing to the Roast Busters; they also reinforced how humiliating and pointless it might be for young women to speak out.
Boys are indulged, girls are doubted. Many women will say it was ever thus.
Read it all: The Best and the Worst of Auckland.
Good on him.
– P
* Where by ‘excellent’, I mean I agree with him.
It’s great that the talk about this goes on. The “naming and shaming” that went on when I was at Westlake Girls was, I’m sure, just as awful for those involved. Feral (and good looking) boys existed then but I don’t recall their behaviour being tolerated by adults, they just flew under the radar. None were academic or particularly smart so hopefully Karma is making their middle age less enjoyable.
One thing that hasn’t changed, as Alex Woodley says, is that girls are less likely to come forward if there is a risk of “I told you so”. We have to let them know that we know they’ll do dumb things and sometimes they’ll be ok, sometimes they won’t – and when its not, we’ll still be there.
ref: Abuse victims blame themselves
It would be much nicer though if boys grew up knowing they aren’t victims of their sexuality and that they do have control over their choices.
I agree.
In reply to your comment about how we (and I mean ‘we’) bring up our boys — particularly around the topic of ‘respect for females’, this recent post from Ben Gracewood does it for me:
I think you are all acting as apologists and blaming one side of the equation out of all proportion.
I suggest you spend some time evaluating properly … both sides of the sexual divide properly and with an even hand .. instead of indulging in skewed polemics with lists and the ‘finality’ (implied) of the word ‘consent’.
Girls are never predatory in their development of sexuality … and they never sexualise boys in any way shape or form.
This is the message i am hearing. The one with the penis is the penetrator and therefore the perpetrator … also – if a party says it was not consensual … that is believed and acted upon without question.
Remember Peter … and i caution you clearly here – i am NOT suggesting anything about my own viewpoint other than the need for balance.
Think about it…
I sense an angry unreasonable mob mentality … and the morality nazis beginning to ensure that any dissenting voice or opinion is snuffed out before it has a chance to form a flame.
Thanks for your comment Ivan.
No, I don’t think girls are ‘never predatory’. I recall a relation of mine (forgive my vagueness, I don’t want to embarrass her) being MOST concerned that a girl at high school with her son was trying to get her hooks into him, as a ‘good catch’, and using her feminine wiles to achieve her goal.
And, there’s no doubt females compete with other females for attention, as do males. Sex sells.
But Ben’s list is absolutely valid, in my view, and so is Matthew Hooton’s cogently expressed point about our daughters being ‘entitled to rebel and behave badly without being raped’.
Of course I know you’re making a point for balance, Ivan. No worries. That’s understood. (But, mate: ‘morality nazis’ is not your best work.)
– P
I still feel its still not being seen equally … the penetrator is seen as the perpetrator.
Your point about morality nazis is ill conceived ‘mate’ … its a more than adequate and very accurate description of an age-old movement. They burned women as witches and excluded them from public life … they now seek to do similar things to the other sex (or so it would seem) in this Century. We have not come far for all our technology and sophistication.
Bens “list” mate … is unbalanced and it doesnt recognise some hard cold realities.
Several generations hence (and i probably wont be around to see it) i may well be proved right.
Your dismissiveness is alarming … you are inclusive and open mate until someone says something that really pushes your boundaries. Have some courage …
And what if dear Matts hypothesis of “entitled to rebel” means that the girl concerned goes all-out to cause a boy to interact with her on a level that puts the boy in danger of giving into natural urges and of incurring the penalties of same …ie pregnancy … post coital accusations of rape etc etc etc …
So my daughter can rebel … she doesnt have a penis so she is not a penetrator … and she can fall back on being forced to do something …
I have the distinct feeling here that the early (and bigoted ignorant) early Christian Church Fathers would rejoice at the current reasoning if it were applied to women in reverse (as they did…) … so now Men (or boys) are the fount of satanic devices and impulses.
Think about it … no bugger else is bloody bothering too …
I recently had a road trip with my adolescent son and we ended up having a long conversation about all of this and he asked some questions that I’m sure would have had his Dad squirming in his seat.
One of the big things I we covered was the games that people play and that consent needs to be agreed when sober because when young girls get caught out or regret their actions they can do/say things that escalate into bigger, nastier problems.
I’ve heard tales of girls blackmailing boys into taking them to school balls and of fake pregnancies.
Any fears I may have for my daughter are mirrored by fears for my son.
“Any fears I may have for my daughter are mirrored by fears for my son.”
Yes, I’m in the same boat. – P
For the record … i’ve seen this scenario in play … factually and observably true … time after time after time.
According to the media fed morality nazis … boys are immoral penetrators of females with no thought for what is right or wrong.
The Penetrator is the perpetrator.
I’m not the least bit concerned about the Roast busters … i am concerned at the mealy mouthed morality nazis peddling their dangerous and sexist dogma … the education system alone is full to the brim with them (perhaps).
What i am grateful for – is that my Sons are adult and off my hands and not subject to the whims of this current farce that passes for social mores and morality naziism.
The PC “Diktats” do not allow for dissent. They constrict expression and use of language … and all we are left with is the narrow definitions of the erudite ‘classes’ exemplified by iphone/techie-huggers like Peter. We bow before your enlightened and at times quite stupid outlook Pete….
Oh my Ivan, I don’t know you from Adam but I’d say that we see things from very different vantage points. I don’t know whats happened to give you the fears that the pendulum has swung too far the other way but I’d say blokes have still got it pretty damn good – even in NZ.
Maybe one day you could sit down with some of your middle aged female friends and talk about date rape in the ’80s and you’ll find its not so different from what has been hitting the media recently – only back then we didn’t complain, we just self blamed.
Well Sarah … and i appreciate your comments but … if you really look long and hard at the reactions particularly those of the people who leap all over dissenting voices asking questions that not only implicate the males … but also the females … i venture to suggest the pendulum has swung the other way and has done for some time now.
I dont know what circles others mixed in in the 80’s … mine were conservative and not party animals … and date rape wasnt even an issue. Its not about blokes having it good .. and in fact young boys now are probably under more feminist propaganda pressure now than ever before (much like motorists vs cyclist morons…)
I have seen college age females … some of whom my aging mother in the 90’s once described as “15 going on 30…” with regard to evidenced predatory behaviours …
Like it or lump it … roast busters aside … there is more than one side to this story. its an unpalatable truth but it has to be faced.
Male Witch burning isnt going to solve the perceived problem … here’s some links to two Music vids that sort of support my point … both are male acts and their audience is mostly pre and Teen females … look for the cues … “gettin wasted… girls just wanna get naughty …” etc etc .. there’s plenty more evidence where that comes from too … it doesnt cause it .. but it sure as hell reflects what the realities are …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fziBWwEODaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gybIS1cgq3Y
For the record .. i have a professional interest in music and its sociological causes and effects.
Everything is sexualised – and to lay the blame and acrimony at the feet of just one Gender is to be foolish in the extreme in my view.
Respect your courtesy and your views Sarah … i am no misogynist … i am of that generation that still holds doors open for women and gives up public transport seating space to same. “A good woman who can find … she is more precious than rubies and diamonds …” to quote the good book.
Some of our daughters are willingly giving away their guarded femininity, purity and mystique and sacred nature … sometimes aided and abetted by stupid mothers. Same applies to boys as well … same nomenclature etc … different applications thereof … but i have personal experience of how boys are now subjugated to a decidedly feminist stream of thought in Government and in the education system. Boys are wrong … girls are right.
Thats the impression … and i stand by it ….