A wonderful book review in the NY Times ‘Why Won’t They Listen?’ sheds some light on the ‘my tribe is better than yours’ bias we discuss here from time to time.
Reviewing The Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt, William Saletan describes how we acquire preferences for social values (liberal v conservative) over time, based on our upbringing and environment.
We may attempt to write off other people’s values as bigoted and reactionary, but really, it’s worth taking a step back and trying to see the ‘good’ they’re based on. (‘Empathy’, as I keep harping on about, although the word doesn’t appear in Saletan’s review.) As he explains, a predisposition to espouse support for morality, authority, sanctity as values can start with a ‘taste’ as we’re brought up.
The worldviews Haidt discusses may differ from yours. They don’t start with the individual. They start with the group or the cosmic order. They exalt families, armies and communities. They assume that people should be treated differently according to social role or status — elders should be honored, subordinates should be protected. They suppress forms of self-expression that might weaken the social fabric. They assume interdependence, not autonomy. They prize order, not equality.
These moral systems aren’t ignorant or backward. Haidt argues that they’re common in history and across the globe because they fit human nature. He compares them to cuisines. We acquire morality the same way we acquire food preferences: we start with what we’re given. If it tastes good, we stick with it. If it doesn’t, we reject it. People accept God, authority and karma because these ideas suit their moral taste buds. Haidt points to research showing that people punish cheaters, accept many hierarchies and don’t support equal distribution of benefits when contributions are unequal.
You don’t have to go abroad to see these ideas. You can find them in the Republican Party. Social conservatives see welfare and feminism as threats to responsibility and family stability. The Tea Party hates redistribution because it interferes with letting people reap what they earn. Faith, patriotism, valor, chastity, law and order — these Republican themes touch all six moral foundations, whereas Democrats, in Haidt’s analysis, focus almost entirely on care and fighting oppression. This is Haidt’s startling message to the left: When it comes to morality, conservatives are more broad-minded than liberals. They serve a more varied diet.
OK, yeah, much as I don’t like being put in a monolithic pigeon hole (‘the left’) he has a point.
It’s more than that. We all (liberals and conservatives) each tend to defend our positions by arguing with an often quickly rendered cliché version of ‘the other side’. We look for, perceive and remember data which we interpret as ‘evidence’ (‘proof’ even) that our existing ideas and values are the ‘correct’ ones. It’s the problem with paradigms, in other words, as we have discussed here before.
I’ve always said no ‘side’ is better or worse than the other at getting off their point of view. We’re equally quick to judge each other as inferior. Haidt disagrees:
The hardest part, Haidt finds, is getting liberals to open their minds. Anecdotally, he reports that when he talks about authority, loyalty and sanctity, many people in the audience spurn these ideas as the seeds of racism, sexism and homophobia. And in a survey of 2,000 Americans, Haidt found that self-described liberals, especially those who called themselves “very liberal,” were worse at predicting the moral judgments of moderates and conservatives than moderates and conservatives were at predicting the moral judgments of liberals. Liberals don’t understand conservative values. And they can’t recognize this failing, because they’re so convinced of their rationality, open-mindedness and enlightenment.
Haidt isn’t just scolding liberals, however. He sees the left and right as yin and yang, each contributing insights to which the other should listen. In his view, for instance, liberals can teach conservatives to recognize and constrain predation by entrenched interests. Haidt believes in the power of reason, but the reasoning has to be interactive. It has to be other people’s reason engaging yours. We’re lousy at challenging our own beliefs, but we’re good at challenging each other’s. Haidt compares us to neurons in a giant brain, capable of “producing good reasoning as an emergent property of the social system.”
That, “We’re lousy at challenging our own beliefs, but we’re good at challenging each other’s” is a key statement. (Which is only to say it reinforces my already-held model of the world!)
In my experience, despite the [alleged] broadmindedness of conservatives, an attempted discussion about policy or morality, even a questioning of some assertions, can very quickly lead some personality types to retreat to their mental bunker, spewing.
I haven’t read Haidt’s book yet but I will.
In the meantime, read the illuminating review here at NY Times.
– P
Hi Peter,
A fascinating article.
Poormastery has trouble with the liberal / conservative label, possibly because I am somewhat (with many reservations) libertarian by heart.
A sickly liberal telling me big government is the answer gets short shrift. Similarly, a nutjob conservative preaching bizarre attacks on personal freedoms doesn’t work either. I sit between both camps. If pushed, I would now say that I am a conservative, although formerly (my views haven’t changed much) I would say that I was a liberal…
Irrespectively, I was particularly taken by this comment in the article:
“The hardest part, Haidt finds, is getting liberals to open their minds. Anecdotally, he reports that when he talks about authority, loyalty and sanctity, many people in the audience spurn these ideas as the seeds of racism, sexism and homophobia. And in a survey of 2,000 Americans, Haidt found that self-described liberals, especially those who called themselves “very liberal,” were worse at predicting the moral judgments of moderates and conservatives than moderates and conservatives were at predicting the moral judgments of liberals. Liberals don’t understand conservative values. And they can’t recognize this failing, because they’re so convinced of their rationality, open-mindedness and enlightenment.”
A more pithy summation of how I consider your views, I have not seen. No offence is intended…
Your frequent dismissal of conservative values (“authority, loyalty and sanctity”) on the basis of your superior über liberal views (based on “rationality, open-mindedness and enlightenment”) is something of a constant theme here. So be it…
Incredulous is the word I would describe to your views towards anyone who has the audacity – the temerity – to be a conservative…
Change, evolution and the human condition? What does it mean?
Risk. An ice age et al can potentially wipe out humanity.
Security and safety are therefore conservative concepts that can have appeal. Is evolution rational, open minded or enlightened? Maybe, but for sure, change always poses some risk…
One of my favourite novels (I recommend it) takes on this issue directly:
“If we want things to stay as they are, things will have to change.” (The Leopard).
What, then, is the answer to these differing views?
I don’t know, but this could be a good start:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/564ceb92-67f3-11e1-978e-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1qIL3d7Rh
Perhaps it is time to talk?
Rgds,
*p*
No offence taken. After all, I did quote that very passage — not so much as a mea culpa but as a ‘Wow, that’s interesting…’
It reminds me of the finding (which also surprised me) that clinically depressed people have a more ‘realistic’ view of life’s likely fortunes than so-called ‘normal’ people — i.e. that psychologically ‘normal’ people are unrealistically optimistic. My psychology professor surmised that optimism is a positive (ha!) for survivability. (The realism of the experiment subjects was tested by the accuracy of their predictions of the outcomes of games of chance: clinically depressed people were more often right/less hopeful.) Sad.
Do I dismiss ‘conservative values’ as you suggest? Well, doesn’t that depend on your definitions? Haidt pops up some fairly motherhood and apple pie-esque values as you quote: (“authority, loyalty and sanctity”)
Let’s agree that there’s a difference between conservative social values and conservative (or neo-conservative a la Dick Cheney et al) policy goals…
Here’s a recent column from your favorite liberal Paul Krugman — ‘Lobbyists, Guns and Money’ describing conservative policy goals …
Like you, I think, I detest labels but sometimes they are useful. Haidt’s division of people into ‘conservatives’ ‘liberals’ and ‘ultra liberals’ (and, do I suppose, ‘ultra conservatives’?) has some uses but, like everything, has some limitations.
—
On conversation: Thanks for the link to the FT article on Conversation.
Very good. “The very act of talking and listening and learning is what my classmates sought.”
I’m not saying this defensively: I do value conversation, and seek it out — even with people with whom I disagree. (I don’t think you I and I disagree about enough, strongly enough, to have any issues.) I like many people with whom I disagree, if they’re thoughtful about it and not just regurgitating hate or reflexive brainless racism etc.
I don’t know the source of this new-age pop psychology slogan but I wear it:
Cheers, P
[…] you standPosted in March 28, 2012Peter AranyiNo Comments »Some respectful discussion today here about open-mindedness and degrees of […]
Hi Peter,
“It reminds me of the finding (which also surprised me) that clinically depressed people have a more ‘realistic’ view of life’s likely fortunes than so-called ‘normal’ people,,,”
Poormastery is an über optimist (with a healthy splash of cynicism), and freely admits that the clinically depressed are likely to be more realistic than me. In this case, “winners curse” strikes me as an apt description…
On the issue of “conservative values”, I don’t think it is important for anyone to necessarily agree or indeed disagree with any of them, whatever these values are. I take your point that Mr Cheney may have a different view from say PJ O’Rourke (self confessed Republican Party Reptile) on what conservatism represents…
Irrespectively, what might be helpful to any individual is an appreciation or understanding that a different perspective may, if not be legitimate, at least is explainable and perhaps understandable. In some ways, it is all about empathy.
Yet beware. Dismissing a different world view with cheap shots (conservatives are racist, sexist and homophobic) can result in great one liners, but any “victory” can be transitory. A conversation completely at cross purposes seldom yields long-term benefits.
Conservatism is prone to crony capitalism, I think. The so-called “elite” can be supported as the status quo. Perhaps this is why I often prefer the outsider maverick politician. Alas, they seldom do well.
Curiously, I think the difference in our views is probably that you are more certain than I am about issues. The older I get, the more “facts” I know, but the less I understand. I nearly always have a view, but my sense of knowing that I am right seems to erode with time. Sometimes I believe that I can appreciate both sides of the debate, and although i will typically support one side of the debate, I can often empathise with the other side as well…
Rgds,
*p*
This: “Irrespectively, what might be helpful to any individual is an appreciation or understanding that a different perspective may, if not be legitimate, at least is explainable and perhaps understandable. In some ways, it is all about empathy.” … is singing my song.
‘Empathy’ and ‘fighting oppression’ are, as I’m sure I have noted elsewhere, the cornerstones of liberalism. (Yet, don’t forget, slavery was abolished by people of quite conservative social values — or ‘taste buds’). In fact Haidt’s book (judging by the review) denounces liberals for the narrowness of their focus: 5 ‘values’ for Republicans vs a paltry 2 for Democrats:
As if Democrats *don’t* value ‘Faith, patriotism, valor, chastity, law and order’? Do you maybe detect a POV there?
—
With respect, ‘certainty of belief’ such as you ascribe to me is not, in my submission, easily discernible, if it even is discernible, from how one (me) lays out one’s arguments in a forum such as this.
I try to be as clear as possible in my expression. (Do I fail? Yes.) But it’s a hallucination to perceive me as ‘more certain … about issues’ than yourself.
While we do, you and I, talk past each other at times (and let’s face it, it’s a near ‘miracle’ we can converse like this, with you in Switzerland and me in NZ) I feel I’ve picked up a lot from the interactions, and haven’t I given you the sense that I’m open to hearing and valuing your POV? Surely?
Tory-ism, in my definition, is seeking to preserve existing privilege — very close to your def. of supporting the status quo and existing ‘élites’.
This is, I think, why there’s unease in certain circles about the differing reproductive rates of the existing underclass — however you define them: hispanics, blacks, …. and Muslims.
‘OMG they’ll out-breed us!’ is the plaintive cry of the shrinking WASPs. Here in Auckland, it’s been interesting to hear people decrying the ‘South Auckland voter turnout’ that saw Len Brown elected mayor of the super-city. The subtext is almost a ‘How can we disenfranchise them?’
Poormastery, despite any mild spraydrift of polemic you may whiff here from time to time, I’m no more certain than you are. And no less.
Condemnation and denunciation, when it’s appropriate, should, I feel, be served at full-strength.
– P
I’d like to think there is right and wrong – and undergirding that is the best effect available on people and the environment that supports them.
Points of view can then be viewed within that frame of reference free from partisan dogma.
Ivan,
Yeah, I like to think there’s right and wrong. Black and white, good and bad, etc. In my experience, sometimes there is.
What happens is (I’m not lecturing you … you know this) humankind’s infinite capacity for weaseling out of ‘blame’ kicks in.
Words like ‘mitigating factors’ ‘justification’ ‘provocation’ ‘lack of intent’ etc are trotted out to reduce culpability.
The most intellectually demanding university course I ever took was a Philosophy paper on Medical Ethics.
As part of the course, we had guest lecturers from the Medical school who shared some of the ethical challenges — ‘real life’ case studies which demonstrated the terrible interleaving, overlapping and sometimes contradictory issues. They really blew my mind.
It’s not a simple matter, and throw political or religious issues into the mix, plus a dose of what I call ‘contentious spirit’ … and god help us.
– P
Of course you mean the sort of “jesus told me” “mohammed teaches this…” and “the freemarket is the best mechanism and arbiter…” and other such partisan bullshit.
I much prefer – if you do this – someone dies – so dont do it. If you do that – people benefit … etc etc.
I can hear a missive from the swiss alps coming now – funny i often have fantasies of PMY running through a field of flowers singing “hills are live with the sound of me’eee’eee….” (but hell that was austria – but they did escape to Switzerland – the land of “i’m on my own side so screw the rest of you – its called winners curse …”)
But i digress …. interesting observation – many of the top nazis (masters of political, social and religious expediency) were Lawyers or held a doctorate. They justified and codified in law – the nuremberg laws. Highly educated successful men – backed up by successful women – irma greise – the femme fatale of the jackbooted world.
Right and wrong – are there absolutes – and is the rest of the bullshit man-made??
Aside from the conundrums of medical practice (which basically come down often to deciding in a ‘no-win’ situation anyway – much like battlefield triage…) there has to be a ground zero of right and wrong.
Otherwise – its all a soup of situational ethics.
Much like the world the neo liberal conservatives dream of tucked up in their own private “berchtesgartens”.
Seig Heil….
And its no picnic fantasising about PMY running through flowers dressed as an ex-nun wearing a Pinafore either.
Its all quite troubling.
ivantheterrible,
“And its no picnic fantasising about PMY running through flowers dressed as an ex-nun wearing a Pinafore either.Its all quite troubling.”
Yes, that all sounds quite disturbing!
Rolling on the floor laughing (ROFL), your impression of me sounds interesting. The reality is somewhat more humble and standard.
Of course, I suspect that we have never met. We just converse here.
Actually, if you met me – there is a possibility – a chance – that you might actually quite like me. Despite our obvious differences in views. Many of my friends have a different world view than I have. It’s okay. Really.
Curiously, when people hear that I live in Switzerland, there is some expectation that I will defend my country of residence. Cheap shots (not entirely unjustified by any means) about Nazism ensue. Occassionally, I do defend Swiss honour. My views on this subject are complicated. Suffice to say, when you have lived in many countries, your perpectives change.
Kant mght say something like our imagination was bounded by our experiences (my interpretation). I would say some things are hard to express in words. Sometimes you have to have experienced alternate cultural experiences to understand that there is more subtlety to culture and humanity than cheap one liners might suggest…
What does all this mean, ivantheterible?
Jacob Bronowski, in the famous television documentary series, ‘The Ascent of Man’ visited Auschwitz, at which many members of his own family had died. He said:
” … We have to cure ourselves of the itch for absolute knowledge and power. We have to close the distance between the push-button order and the human act. We have to touch people.”
We have to touch people, Comrade.
Rgds,
*p*
Hello big PMY – no worries – you irritate the living shit out of me sometimes … but not HALF as much as Pete does. But lets look at it on the basis that if you didnt actually like or appreciate someone – you wouldnt say things to their face – but rather behind their back.
Im just jealous that i cant wake up each day to the sound of clanking cowbells, yodelling herders – and busty “MilchFrauen” skipping over the alpine meadows. So sue me??
You’re cool Big PMY – just you keep lodging yourself up my equally partisan olfactory members.
Nice reply – thanks for being openminded. Pete just needs bouncing up and down on the spot sometimes thats all. Media constructs deserve that every now and then.
And the references to Naziism werent cheap shots mate – and they werent actually directed at your nation of residence either. The Nazis and the era of the 30’s are all coming again – the very same conditions – and it concerns me that folk seem unwilling to see them used as an object lesson in human behaviours.
As you know – i’ve been unjustly accused of anti semitism on here – simply because i used the analogy of my regular yearly spruce up of the barbie at two locations – home and holiday – where usually large cockroaches come crawling out when gassed with bugspray. I wasnt on that occasion meaning the nazis – if i was – i would have said same. Would you want to eat steak off a barbie infested with cockies?? The analogy was meant at that time – to demonstrate what happens when things start getting rough or under scrutiny – as it were.
I’m now off to a rehearsal of the nuns chorus.
[…] science with ideologyPosted in March 30, 2012Peter AranyiNo Comments »Following up on our conversation about differing measures of openness to ideas, depending on self-identification as […]
Peter, may I borrow Haidt’s book when you’ve finished it? It raises many issues that Trudy and I have discussed for years. It reminds me too of the radical feminist who visited NZ some years back who was berating her liberal friends for being pro-abortion. She commented then that liberalism has all too often been simply immoral. Do you remember her or her name?
But … aside from the complex ins and outs of philosophising and dividing one word from another … and performing circumlocuitous motions … are there absolutes or not?
Some of Petes posts remind me of someone chewing a 3 day old bone to determine how the meat actually got there in the first place.
Are there absolutes or not – or are we all required to get a PHD in some academic discipline to live life??
Interesting question.
Or does this all imply that there is an elite out there – that interprets the basics of life for us??
Hi Ivan,
re your Q: “Are there absolutes or not …?”
The best answer I can give you is: It depends.
In my experience, a quest for the ‘right answer’ to ‘difficult’ questions often leads people to religion or some other ideology … which, as I think is emerging in our chewing of old bones here, often has a lot to do with seeking ‘membership’ as a sort of confirming/comforting experience or existence.
re ‘irritating’ you: How sad. Oh well. Never mind. 😉
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10dmK7O-KSY
– P
It was meant as a joke Pete – re “irritating…” you know – sort of chuck on the chin affectionately ….
But – you have answered my question – “it depends”.
Religion seems to form a justification for currently held beliefs or predispositions – rather than any search for truth.
Its all linked to peoples paradigms and nothing to do with truth at all. No different to partisan political ideologies either.
Also liked this review: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/14/the-righteous-mind-jonathan-haidt-review – I think I need my own copy…
Get on the Kindle store: http://www.amazon.com/The-Righteous-Mind-Politics-ebook/dp/B0076O2VMI/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1333147671&sr=1-1
Wow, Graeme, that IS a good review… thanks!
That bit about shared values ties into the in-group/out-group thing we’ve been talking about since, like, forever! viz:
http://www.thepaepae.com/where-does-conflict-come-from/567/
Very nice.
– P
I rest my case about needing (apparently) an elite priesthood that interprets daily life for us.
“surely goodness and mercy – have followed me all the days of my life”
Maybe Mao was right … “religion is poison” Except in the case of Buddhism – it really wasnt a religion.
Maybe much of our “philosophising” is “Straining at gnats – while swallowing camels….”
Or to use the vernacular … “utter bullshit”
“…an elite priesthood that interprets daily life for us.”
Is that what you think I’m saying? I’m not. I’m just exploring these ideas with other who want to talk about them. Shootin’ the breeze.
This, from the review of Haidt’s book: “… often moral judgment is a case of us v them rather than right v wrong” REALLY resonates with what I’ve been thinking/saying/discussing with people like Graeme (for ages, and recently).
Tune in to that conversation, tune out, whatever suits you …
I’m happy to have you try to rark me up, but personally, I find this stuff rilly interesting.
It gives me another perspective on trying to understand other people’s point of view and drivers… and insight about perhaps why we readily ‘condemn’ other POV’s in such moral language.
And the folly — utter folly — of thinking I might be able to convince someone from another ‘camp’ … of anything.
Esoteric? Yep. Welcome along if you want.
– P
Esoteric … never let that word enter into it at all Pete.
Rark you up – nope – not guilty.
I continue to ask the question – are there absolutes – or is everything just POV’s and a sliding scale or shades of grey etc etc. I dont take any moral stance at all – apart from what is obviously either harmful or beneficial from observed reality. “if you cut me – do i not bleed …” or similar.
I too – am interested in such things – what i’d be keen to see is conclusions rather than a weedy field of more questions remaining unanswered – if you get my drift.
There is is often something quite precious and ‘twee’ about cafe-philosophising. Its de riguer – but does it lead anywhere is all.
I dont know – do you?
Got my copy and it’s so good, I’ve already loaned it twice! Now, if I can just get it back to read past page 23…
Hi Ivan,
A couple of (by necessity) quick points:
Yes, we mostly agree on this: “Its all linked to peoples paradigms and nothing to do with truth at all. No different to partisan political ideologies either.”
… in as much as dogmatically-held partisan beliefs and convictions in the religious ‘space’ and the ideological/political ‘space’ are closely related, perhaps indistinguishable, so far as our support for ‘my party etc. right or wrong’ thinking.
Does ‘cafe-philosophising’ and discussion lead anywhere? Or is it just a weedy field?
In my experience, conversation can lead to empathy and reduced misunderstandings … and lead to less demonization of the ‘out-group’. No guarantees, though.
Does it solve anything? Hmmm. Well, it can act as a prophylactic.
I was struck in Europe how the overt #1 goal of the EU seemed to be to prevent another slip into European/World War — with the idea that an economic ‘community’ … with real discussion of members’ issues and views (not a tea party, by any means) intended to defuse tensions. ‘You don’t bomb your customers,’ as Marshall Thurber said.
As you suggest, these diversions and discussions are a luxury. First world problems.
– P
Gotta say mate – conversation depends on shared thinking and an openness of understanding – which includes cultural paradigms and mores as such.
Europe has changed not one whit. History teaches us – and we dont seem to listen or comprehend.
The first world philosophised through the 20’s and the 30’s – and it all repeated itself – with added lethal consequences not seen in the previous occurence.
Why do people seem to think – that the global market means everyone will behave themselves?
These diversions and discussions are a luxury. Enjoy them – while we can. They will soon become irrelevant.
And – to piddle in your pocket in the most elegant and well meaning manner Pete – i like your blog – i like your openness – i like your willingness to hear voices that may jar with your own.
Just please tell PMY to ditch the nuns costume – and all those annoying swiss / globalist habits he has. I still have this mental picture of a cross dressing nun sitting in a swiss chalet in a wingback chair puffing on a cuban cigar while totting up his dividends off a spreadsheet.
Cheers Ivan. And never forget: ‘Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar’.
Which is probably a misquotation by a (gasp) journalist — according to this: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/List_of_misquotations
– P
A cigar my friend – is never just a cigar. give a cuban any day.
For a fleeting moment i become a neo liberal when i smoke one – i even begin to yodel.
I have racked my brain, but just cannot come up with a clever riposte to your comment about cigars. 😉 P
[…] or useful tool?Danger of dogmaPosted in April 13, 2012Peter AranyiNo Comments »Following our protracted discussion on conservatism and liberalism (for want of better labels)— and differing levels of willingness […]
Another good take on political identity …
From ‘Born This Way – The new weird science of hardwired political identity.’ New York magazine
http://nymag.com/news/features/liberals-conservatives-2012-4/
Oh boy! Two more excellent references to/discussions about the ideas presented in Haidt’s book:
This, from Peter Wehner’s Commentary (read the whole thing!):
And (it doesn’t get better than this) Andrew Sullivan BLAMES NIXON!
Referencing the Peter Wehner piece in his post What Nixon Wrought Sullivan says this about ‘balance’ referring back to what he was/I was trying to highlight when discussing Loyalty, Discussion, Criticism…
And then bringing up Nixon’s ‘Southern Strategy’ (allegedly appealing to racist Democrats so they’d slide into supporting the GOP — it’s contentious) …
‘Polarization that appears immune to reason’ — Sad. Real.
– P
[…] touched on it here in our dicussions On narrow social focus and moral taste buds and Danger of dogma wherein it becomes obvious that our world view filters what we […]
[…] Day (and the left’s bewilderment at it) is an example of Jonathan Haidt’s model of moral taste buds in […]
[…] we have smart people like poormastery describing themselves as ‘economically conservative but socially liberal’ — a thought […]